Aussie spinners agree to flick 'doosra'

[Akib]

Who cares. As OZGOD said, their spinners can't even bowl basic deliveries properly... They shouldn't come near doorsa anyways.

[Surfer]

Classic example of 'sour grapes'. Typical Aussie. And as far as Bedi is concerned, he will say anything to get some media coverage. Just about anything. And for some unexplained reason, he hates Murali. He would readily call everything associated with Muralu illegal.

[Eshen]

Ian, Aussies were super pissed when Bosanquet invented googly and took tons of wickets using it. Don't you think the history is repeating itself?

[IanW]

Originally Posted by Eshen
Ian, Aussies were super pissed when Bosanquet invented googly and took tons of wickets using it. Don't you think the history is repeating itself?

Eshen,

No, they werent, and I'd like to see some period evidence to suggest they were upset over the delivery that was not illegal, but merely immoral.

But the key is you use your wrist to do a googly, and your elbow to do a doosra.

Surfer,

So, if they are white and disagree with you, it's racism. If they arent white and disagree with you, it's a personal feud. It's pretty good to have such an all-purpose way to dismiss anyone holding a different opinion.

Bluntly, Bedi doesnt dislike Murali for any reason other than he think's he's a chucker, who cheated his way to the wickets that other bowlers got honestly.

The ICC also agrees he's a chucker, but they amended the rules to make limited chucking, up to 15 degrees, legal.

Rabz,

It's a deeply held opinion by the Australian spin brains trust, and part of the Australian cricketing tradition. Bill Woodfull refused to have Bobyline bowled, and Terry Jenner refuses to teach the offies how to chuck the ball so it spins the other way.

[Imteaz]

Nice & Interesting.

[Rabz]

My question:

How many beers did the boys had before they decided to flick the doosra?
Or was it just pub talk that got out in the media?

[RazabQ]

Ian mate, I think you are being highly convenient here. Think back to what brought about this 15 degree tolerance in the first place. If you recall, the ICC installed super slo-mo cameras at some tournaments and found that _every_one_ chucks to some degree. Even the great Glenn McGrath. What they found was that as far as visual evidence goes and average deviation, anything withing 15 degrees should be fine. It is therefore highly revisionist to think that this law was rewritten for Murali. Also, there was a Sky documentary where Murali had his entire arm in a brace which prevented him from any form of elbow straightening and he was still able to turn his offie and doosra at good pace and with great deviation.

I understand that this is one of those issues where many with an Aussie upbringing (note I don't say this is racism - cricket_king who holds the same views is of Bangladeshi ancestry) somehow gets all hot and bothered. It could very well be because Australia has never had a reputation for cricketing innovation. Of domination, excellence, professionalism and competitiveness - yes, but not of newness: The didn't invent leg-spin, just had some of the best practitioners. They didn't invent the leg glance or hook or pull - just that their batters are so good at it. They didn't invent the reverse sweep or switch hit. They didn't invent reverse swing but now happen to have the best coach for teaching it. Arguably the only thing "new" that they've taught the world is "mental disintegration" aka calling someone dirty names while on the field and then acting like nothing's happened because you are buying that "mate" a beer afterwords. Hence, "new" stuff in Australia is treated with suspicion perhaps?

Anyway, I never recall the Aussies griping about Saqlain's action and he invented the doosra. Could it be because they were able to figure him out easily but not Murali? To assert, in a blanket fashion, that all doosras must involve chucking is ignorant at best and a sad case of sour-grapes at worst.

I look forward to the day when an Australian player, sayes F-you to coaching and comes up with some new form of bowling or batting, sends the establishment into a tizzy and burying this mistrust of all things new once and for all from the southern shores.

[OZGOD]

Innovation is not just about creating new deliveries, new shots or the like. Innovation is about thinking of new ways to do things, new models to follow. I thought scoring at 4rpo in a Test match and finishing it in 3 or 4 days was pretty innovative myself. Nobody had done it before. And I thought World Series Cricket, which was set up by Kerry Packer, was a bit of an innovation, but maybe others don't see it that way. Same goes for the six-ball over, which was also an Australian innovation way back in the late 1800s. The concept of centrally contracted players - another innovation.

And John Buchanan was talking about switch hitting well before Kevinder started doing it. Buchanan also brought in a US baseball throwing coach to teach the OZ how to throw low, flat trajectories which saved time and improved accuracy. Buck was actually a pretty innovative coach. 90% of his ideas were rubbish, but the 10% made a difference.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by OZGOD
Innovation is not just about creating new deliveries, new shots or the like. Innovation is about thinking of new ways to do things, new models to follow. I thought scoring at 4rpo in a Test match and finishing it in 3 or 4 days was pretty innovative myself. Nobody had done it before. And I thought World Series Cricket, which was set up by Kerry Packer, was a bit of an innovation, but maybe others don't see it that way. Same goes for the six-ball over, which was also an Australian innovation way back in the late 1800s. The concept of centrally contracted players - another innovation.

And John Buchanan was talking about switch hitting well before Kevinder started doing it. Buchanan also brought in a US baseball throwing coach to teach the OZ how to throw low, flat trajectories which saved time and improved accuracy. Buck was actually a pretty innovative coach. 90% of his ideas were rubbish, but the 10% made a difference.

Yup. What you do is innovation. What others do (and you can not) is illegal. For example, a squash ball in the gloves is innovation. The doosra is illegal.

[OZGOD]

Originally Posted by Surfer
Yup. What you do is innovation. What others do (and you can not) is illegal. For example, a squash ball in the gloves is innovation. The doosra is illegal.

Show me where in the Laws of Cricket it says that having a squash ball in the gloves is illegal and I will agree with you. Does having a squash ball in the gloves involve straightening the elbow?

What about being deliberately late for the toss? Surely that can't be an innovation and neither can it be illegal, as a million captains from a million teams in a million sports have done the same to wind their opposing captain up. It's all good when you get away with it eh.

Mind you, my personal opinion is that if the ICC have legalised straightening the elbow by 15 degrees, then it's all good. But other Ozzies will have their own opinions, and fair enough.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by OZGOD
Show me where in the Laws of Cricket it says that having a squash ball in the gloves is illegal and I will agree with you. Does having a squash ball in the gloves involve straightening the elbow?

What about being deliberately late for the toss? Surely that can't be an innovation and neither can it be illegal, as a million captains from a million teams in a million sports have done the same to wind their opposing captain up. It's all good when you get away with it eh.

Mind you, my personal opinion is that if the ICC have legalised straightening the elbow by 15 degrees, then it's all good. But other Ozzies will have their own opinions, and fair enough.

That's the point. Both are new, both are within the law. One the Australians can do, the other they can not. What they can not do, they declare illegal. That's hypocritical. The doosra has been around for more than a decade and the ICC has allowed it to stay. But the Australians, who have no idea how to bowl it suddenly conclude that its illegal. That is hypocrisy at its best.

[RazabQ]

OZGod, fair enough. You explain then this hot-n-bothered reaction to bowling innovations then.

[OZGOD]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
OZGod, fair enough. You explain then this hot-n-bothered reaction to bowling innovations then.

I think it's more of a principle thing for them to be honest. Like Ian said, they just fundamentally think that a doosra cannot be bowled legally as it involves straightening the elbow. Clearly it is now a legal delivery, but chucking has a big stigma in OZ.

That said, if Cullen or Horroritz ever managed to figure out how to bowl one, I don't think anyone will be complaining.

[RazabQ]

I'd like to again reiterate, that elbow straightening was done by many an OZ bowler as well under the ICC analysis. This matter of principle still seems a tad convenient if you ask me.

[Tintin]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
I'd like to again reiterate, that elbow straightening was done by many an OZ bowler as well under the ICC analysis. This matter of principle still seems a tad convenient if you ask me.

The ICC analysis was done in the 2004 Champions Trophy where Murali did not play. I would be glad to be proved wrong but I don't think Murali has ever been tested in match conditions, though ICC claims to have the figures for many others. Those for Murali are all taken during "tests". One would have thought that ICC would want to measure Murali before anyone else.

[RazabQ]

And I'm yet to hear the rebuttal of Murali brace issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDxRhcpBZio

Again, given that he was a trump to Warny's wicket total, I find this "principle" business unconvincing.

[RazabQ]

Note I'm not talking about match conditions per se but the blanket statement that a doosra cannot be bowled without chucking. That to me is total crock! The match condition argument will never end unless you record every delivery every bowler has ever bowled.

[OZGOD]

It's perception though RazabQ. Most offies cannot bowl a doosra AND control the ball without noticeably straightening their elbow. E.g. Shoaib Malik, Johan Botha, etc. It's an incredibly difficult delivery to bowl. There are a select few who obviously can keep it below 15 degrees, like Saqi, Saint Harby and Murali. Their anatomy or level of control is such that it allows them to do it. Now I'm not Ashley Mallett and I can neither speak for him, nor do I necessarily share his opinion, but I would guess that they think that it's pretty much impossible for someone to bowl a doosra without bending and straightening the arm.

Like I said, I'm sure tunes will change once someone actually manages to bowl a doosra in OZ.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by OZGOD
It's perception though RazabQ. Most offies cannot bowl a doosra AND control the ball without noticeably straightening their elbow. E.g. Shoaib Malik, Johan Botha, etc. It's an incredibly difficult delivery to bowl. There are a select few who obviously can keep it below 15 degrees, like Saqi, Saint Harby and Murali. Their anatomy or level of control is such that it allows them to do it. Now I'm not Ashley Mallett and I can neither speak for him, nor do I necessarily share his opinion, but I would guess that they think that it's pretty much impossible for someone to bowl a doosra without bending and straightening the arm.

Like I said, I'm sure tunes will change once someone actually manages to bowl a doosra in OZ.

There, you said it. There are some things in each sport that only the experts can do. A lot of spinners can not spin the ball as much as Warne could. Should the rest of the world declare Warne's deliveries as illegal? As long as the deliveries are bowled within the rules prescribed by the ICC, they are legal. And the expert Aussie coaches, who could not produce a half decent spinner since Warne, should try and develop their own skills than point fingers at others.

[OZGOD]

Originally Posted by Surfer
There, you said it. There are some things in each sport that only the experts can do. A lot of spinners can not spin the ball as much as Warne could. Should the rest of the world declare Warne's deliveries as illegal? As long as the deliveries are bowled within the rules prescribed by the ICC, they are legal. And the expert Aussie coaches, who could not produce a half decent spinner since Warne, should try and develop their own skills than point fingers at others.

Amazing how a decision by Ozzie coaches to make a determination as to what type of deliveries to teach to their players has somehow been construed as a "pointing the finger at others". I'm pretty sure we're entitled to deciding what to or not to teach our bowlers. Also, you seem to be treating me as Ashley Mallett when I had already mentioned that I don't care if people chuck the ball, scratch it with a can opener or whatever as long as the ICC reckons its all good. I think there's a bit of Aussie hate clouding your judgment mate.

[chol_bd123]

the aussies are a little too narrow minded. just because they cant do it doesnt mean other's can't

By that what exactly is a doosra. Can anyone provide me a youtube video.
ANd is there a doosra for a legspinner.

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by chol_bd123
these aussies are just losers!! and wimps

Don't generalise.

[Eshen]

Jason Krejza produces one that goes the other way. And gets away scot-free

http://www.cricinfo.com/page2/content/story/437267.html

Veteran Australian radio commentator Jim Maxwell said it hit a crack, Ed Cowan, who was playing in the game, said it hit the footmarks; and the news quickly spread: an Australian bowled an unplayable doosra. Nathan Hauritz then said he had one, but people ignored him.

Tim Coyle, Krejza's coach at Tasmania, stood up and made everyone feel better: "It is not a doosra, it is as simple as that".

Problem solved.

Coyle went on to say, "Jason Krejza has a special delivery that can't be compared with a bent-elbow doosra. People need to go and have a look at what he bowls. He bowls this ball that goes the other way exactly the same way as his offbreak, so to me it is not a doosra."

Thank you, Tim Coyle. Of course it isn't a doosra. How silly. It is an as-yet-unnamed mystery ball. Australian fans all let out a sigh of relief.

[Eshen]

And here is video evidence - Krejza bowling doosra!

Jason Krejza bowls Khawaja with a doosra

[Tigers_eye]

After pontings comment Ashley Mallet heads to the pub with his buddies. For some reason Bedi was not sited there. I wonder ....