WI series post-mortem 2012

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Sohel
Bringing in a fast bowler too early is far more risky because of the real possibility of injury. Just look at Talha, Mashrafe and Rubel. Taskin needs to be sent to Ian Pont's academy for a couple of years. He has time.

I agree with you that bringing in young pacers could cause injury problems but what option do we really have? I don't really see any pacers outside the national team that are very good. Or we have to continue to depend on Shahadat but then again isn't that like depending on SN or Nazim just because their more experienced? It's no point of wasting time with failures like Shahadat. It's time we groom up youngsters like Abul and Taskin. They might not end up panning out but we have to try

[Jadukor]

It saddens me as well to see we are getting no where after 12 years of test cricket. We hope before every series something different will happen but it turns out to be just like the last series.

While I agree that mediocre players with inflated NCL averages will fail in the long run, I am also wary of the risk of blooding in youngsters with ability, too early. I believe we need to show patience with the youngsters and let them develop through the A-team and HP squads before throwing into the international arena. We have lost far too many "talents" with the "throwing them early" approach. Our fans, media and selectors simply do not have the patience to persist with a youngers if he goes without scoring for 6-7 innings.

While NCL might not be the barometer of success, I am sure A-team tours and HP tours will be more up to the standard. I think Anamul is probably ready but let the rest do the hard yards in various competitions before we bring them in. It is more important for Fast bowlers to do the hard yards in FC games to strengthen their body as well. Two days out in the field, which seems to be our fate will surely break them down in Test matches.

While we prepare these pipeline players the temporary option is the stick with the mediocre players from the NCL. We will lose the games but we might also secure a better future.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Tiger444
I agree with you that bringing in young pacers could cause injury problems but what option do we really have? I don't really see any pacers outside the national team that are very good. Or we have to continue to depend on Shahadat but then again isn't that like depending on SN or Nazim just because their more experienced? It's no point of wasting time with failures like Shahadat. It's time we groom up youngsters like Abul and Taskin. They might not end up panning out but we have to try

I think while Taskin, Rabbi and maybe Shubhashish and Haider develop (and learn to avoid injury) in Ian Pont's academy for a couple of years, at least in my fantasies that is, we can persist with Rubel as our only wicket taking threat as seamers go in test cricket. I don't think Mashrafe can come back to test cricket after 4 career debilitating surgeries. So, I don't mind Raju or Rajib going for runs as long as he's getting wickets at regular intervals but I don't see that happening. I'm not opposed to other options such as Nazmul, Talha, Tapash, Sajid or Robbin to see what they can do although each has serious issues of his own.

Our attack should be spin-centric anyway and I feel we have good wicket takers in Shakib, Enam, Shohag and Sunny in that order.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
While NCL might not be the barometer of success, I am sure A-team tours and HP tours will be more up to the standard. I think Anamul is probably ready but let the rest do the hard yards in various competitions before we bring them in. It is more important for Fast bowlers to do the hard yards in FC games to strengthen their body as well. Two days out in the field, which seems to be our fate will surely break them down in Test matches.

While we prepare these pipeline players the temporary option is the stick with the mediocre players from the NCL. We will lose the games but we might also secure a better future.

I'd totally agree with you had we scheduled enough A team cricket where the teams were not haphazardly put together as always. Such A Team cricket would definitely be an excellent place to prepare young players with genuine ability for the highest level. Sadly, that sort of A Team cricket is not what we've done to date, and I don't see us doing it anytime soon.

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Sohel
I think while Taskin, Rabbi and maybe Shubhashish and Haider develop (and learn to avoid injury) in Ian Pont's academy for a couple of years, at least in my fantasies that is, we can persist with Rubel as our only wicket taking threat as seamers go in test cricket. I don't think Mashrafe can come back to test cricket after 4 career debilitating surgeries. So, I don't mind Raju or Rajib going for runs as long as he's getting wickets at regular intervals but I don't see that happening. I'm not opposed to other options such as Nazmul, Talha, Tapash, Sajid or Robbin to see what they can do although each has serious issues of his own.

Our attack should be spin-centric anyway and I feel we have good wicket takers in Shakib, Enam, Shohag and Sunny in that order.

If we could send them to Coach Ian's academy, then I'd be all for that but knowing BCB, I doubt that would happen.

Also I could be wrong here but I don't think our pacers get injured because of young age. I think it's more to do with the fact that they don't take care of themselves well enough and also BCB doesn't have much supervision over our pacers and guidance. Therefore we see a lot of injuries to our pacers.

[Sohel]

^Talha, Mashrafe and Rubel picked up injuries due to overuse. Age becomes a factor when that happens. The same thing happened to Cummins BTW. He's 19.

[Jadukor]

We need to do so much that somehow i don't feel we have done anything in the last 12 years. Now we do have the financial resources to do the needful:
i) arrange more A team and HP tours overseas for Pipeline players supervised by Richard
ii) Bring in Ian Pont to build a pace bowling academy here in Bangladesh with the task of identifying raw talents and nurturing them into good prospects
iii) Increase compensation packages for FC leagues to attract foreign players. Target pacers from overseas.
iv) Train our umpires for international level and train our curators so that we can prepare pitches to our strength

these are all measures that can be taken currently with an eye on 2015 world cup but i wonder if we will ever see it happen

[Tiger444]

^i agree with those 3 that they were overused but what about Nazmul then? Can't say the same about him but still it seems he gets injured pretty often. Also guys like Subashis, Emon and Sajedul have injury issues despite not being overused. So while overusing pacers is a worry, as long as they have actions that won't over-stress their bodies and are managed correctly, then they'd be fine.

Cummins is injury prone also because of his action. I think coach Ian pointed it out that his action is a reason he gets injured too much. He puts way too much stress on his body. This is why Steyn and Lee have managed to stay strong despite bowling at fast speeds.

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[Sohel]

^Ian can teach them how to bowl accurately at pace with swing, aggression and intent, AND how not to get injured.

[Tiger444]

^agreed. I would love for that to happen. We'd get better pacers in the process but unfortunately I don't see it happening knowing BCB. If they don't end up going to Ian's academy though, don't you think the next best alternative for them is to be in the national team? I would trust the national team's guidance far more than the NCL.

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[Sohel]

^The National Team is definitely a better place to develop than the NCL. Quality A Team and HP tours are too. Sending prospective pacers to foreign academies isn't that unusual BTW. So, I'm still hopeful.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
We need to do so much that somehow i don't feel we have done anything in the last 12 years. Now we do have the financial resources to do the needful:
i) arrange more A team and HP tours overseas for Pipeline players supervised by Richard
ii) Bring in Ian Pont to build a pace bowling academy here in Bangladesh with the task of identifying raw talents and nurturing them into good prospects
iii) Increase compensation packages for FC leagues to attract foreign players. Target pacers from overseas.
iv) Train our umpires for international level and train our curators so that we can prepare pitches to our strength

these are all measures that can be taken currently with an eye on 2015 world cup but i wonder if we will ever see it happen

Add appropriate and qualified coaching staff for the teams. Look, our ex national team coach is a coach of a local team in NZ... So you understand why they will not produce better players even having a smaller pool. JS may not be a very useful HC for the National team, but it's good to have him for a FC team, specially after a national team experience... We must look for foreign coaches for all FC and DPL teams....can have local coaches to assist...that will raise the level of domestic standards considerably ...

[oronnya]

Ok lots of people thinks it would have been better if it was a spin friendly pitch. May be you are right but last time when they prepared a spin friendly pitch against Pakistan, they couldn't even post 100 runs on the board. So it's a double edged sword. Our batsmen struggles even on a flat pitch then what makes you think they will survive on a bowling friendly pitch? May be that's negative thinking but had they all gone all out for a below par score the same people would come and complain about the pitch.

Anyways our bowlers should learn how to get wickets even on a flat pitch. If you are smart and know how to outfox the opposition then you can take wickets even on a flat pitch. Seems like our bowlers never bowls with a plan to certain batsman. They only planned for Gayle in this series and they were successful. I think they don't do enough homework on the opposition batsmen's style or weaknesses. Mirpur pitch is always flat and we play a significant amount of matches here so batsmen should know how to post 500 on a flat track and the bowlers should learn how to survive here. Of course I'm not against preparing a spin friendly pitch but given the poor techniques of our batsmen I don't think that would be wise atm.

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Sohel
^The National Team is definitely a better place to develop than the NCL. Quality A Team and HP tours are too. Sending prospective pacers to foreign academies isn't that unusual BTW. So, I'm still hopeful.

Ok that's good to know. If they end up sending our young, promising pacers away to coach Ian or any other foreign academy, that would be the best situation. It would benefit us in the long term for sure.

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[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
We need to do so much that somehow i don't feel we have done anything in the last 12 years. Now we do have the financial resources to do the needful:
i) arrange more A team and HP tours overseas for Pipeline players supervised by Richard
ii) Bring in Ian Pont to build a pace bowling academy here in Bangladesh with the task of identifying raw talents and nurturing them into good prospects
iii) Increase compensation packages for FC leagues to attract foreign players. Target pacers from overseas.
iv) Train our umpires for international level and train our curators so that we can prepare pitches to our strength

these are all measures that can be taken currently with an eye on 2015 world cup but i wonder if we will ever see it happen

Would love for these things to happen but doubt it as well.

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[Jadukor]

Originally Posted by oronnya
Ok lots of people thinks it would have been better if it was a spin friendly pitch. May be you are right but last time when they prepared a spin friendly pitch against Pakistan, they couldn't even post 100 runs on the board. So it's a double edged sword. Our batsmen struggles even on a flat pitch then what makes you think they will survive on a bowling friendly pitch? May be that's negative thinking but had they all gone all out for a below par score the same people would come and complain about the pitch.

Anyways our bowlers should learn how to get wickets even on a flat pitch. If you are smart and know how to outfox the opposition then you can take wickets even on a flat pitch. Seems like our bowlers never bowls with a plan to certain batsman. They only planned for Gayle in this series and they were successful. I think they don't do enough homework on the opposition batsmen's style or weaknesses. Mirpur pitch is always flat and we play a significant amount of matches here so batsmen should know how to post 500 on a flat track and the bowlers should learn how to survive here. Of course I'm not against preparing a spin friendly pitch but given the poor techniques of our batsmen I don't think that would be wise atm.

Let me say the positives imo of having a spin friendly wicket like the one in Mumbai
i) As a bowling unit we are very limited. We do not have a pace bowler who can blast opposition out or a mystery spinner who can fool the batsman. So if a batsman is willing to not take risks on a flat deck which has zero turn or turn at slow pace then we have very little options to fall back on. WI had the option of Fidel and Best when Permaul and Narine weren't effective... we had Shahadat and Abul!

On a turning track even orthodox spin can be very effective as the spinners can vary the mount of turn to find the edges. At the same time the arm balls also become as effective as the doosra to batters playing for turn. Hence we can rely on bowling those consistent lines and get much better result. Ultimately test matches can only be won by bowlers taking 20 wkts and we should play to our strength which is spin bowling.

ii) in case of our batting we have proven we lack the desire to play a long test innings on flat decks. So if the innings is shorter on a turning pitch for both sides, the fluke 30s 40s by our batters will be more meaningful.

[Sohel]

Getting wickets on a flt pitch is tough. As a pacer, you'd need to generate pace in the air, bowl full and straight and hope it swings. You'll also need to really bend your back to generate the bounce and carry you'd need in accurate back of length deliveries in the corridor of uncertainty for variation. Highly improbable for our pacers as things stand now.

Spinners would need to toss it up, use drift when available, really stress their wrist and fingers and rip it to an aggressively set field. Again, highly improbable.

Flat surfaces also favor the side with better batsmen and that's simply not us.

So, we must invest in quality pitches where our batsmen will face better quality attacks and once they survive, may become better quality batsmen in the process.

[al Furqaan]

I'm not going to write Naeem off...I think he top scored twice (at least amongst the top order batters in the side). Its true that on seaming, swinging conditions he'll likely get exposed, but how often will we be playing there? And we'd be expected to lose anyways. At least we can compete at home if we had 4 Naeem's in the side.

I also disagree that young pacers get injured because they are young. Cummins has an extremely taxing action, one that I'm surprised hasn't snapped his lumbo-sacral column in half. Rubel's injury came from a bekaida dive while fielding in that Pakistan Test + re-injury in the BPL. Mashrafee was made of glass like Bond, Cummins, Malinga, and a few others. Injuries happen due to the amount of cricket being played and the travel associated with modern day cricket. Tests and ODIs here, then BBL, then IPL, then CLT, then ICC World T20...this is what is killing the fitness of fast bowlers. Our pacers barely play int'l cricket and none will be in any of the T20 leagues, so I see no reason to use that to keep Taskin out if he really is the next best pacer we have. He shouldn't play ODIs or T20s because I don't think he's a limited overs player anyways and we also have a settled LOI pace attack.

Agreed about pacers getting wickets on flat tracks. Look at Best, he's built like an NFL running back. He could probably bench press the entire Bangladesh team...he hardly swung the ball and aside from a few balls didn't cut it either. He got wickets on a dead pitch but just bowling full and straight for middle stump. He must have been bowling around 90 mph. In the absence of brute pace, you won't get wickets. In contrast, Edwards and Sammy both got their wickets due to unforced batting errors...Best earned every single wicket with unplayable (at least for us) deliveries.

Spinners on the other hand can bowl a marathon spell of 20 overs for 3 hours without change and take a couple wickets on a dead track. Pacers cannot. In that light Rubel who bowled crap in the first Test, bowled as well as you can expect a Bangladeshi pacer to bowl in the 2nd...ie he bowled very very well.

[Sohel]

@Asaad: It's all about the approach and philosophy, bro. I'm partial to the Irish approach and not the pre-Ganguly Indian one from the 90s. I believe you should set yourself up to compete irrespective of the circumstances and the best way to do that is by selecting the players with most ability irrespective of the venue. Selecting domestic bullies in the hope that while they're more than likely to fail outside the country, "at least" they'll do better under more familiar conditions albeit against far superior attacks than what they're used to, simply isn't a healthy approach in my book. Beside, we DON'T really compete at home, do we now? Winning a session or two simply isn't competing in a test match from where I stand, and having mediocre players only reduce our odds, even at home.

So guys like Rajin, Rocky, Mehrab, Sohrawardi, Jahurul Islam Omi, Farhad Reza, Nazimuddin, Nayeem and possibly Ratul, Rial and Liton in the not so distant future will never be my thing. The fluke successes notwithstanding, I doubt that any of them has the stomach to handle the pressure of high expectation after his initial success. I also would not bet on them to raise their game the way Riyad has. It's all about sustainability and consistency in my book, and not just in familiar home conditions, but also abroad because we're a test playing nation.

I said that overuse of a young bowler, because he's better than others at the time, creates a higher risk of injury especially on our flat track. I also said that once they get injured, their age becomes a factor, at least with regards psychosomatic impact of the injury. I didn't say that a fast bowler would get injured because he's young. I strongly feel that young prospects like Taskin and Rabbi need someone like Ian Pont to guide them into excellence while teaching them how to prevent injury, before they come into the national team. That, in short is my risk management assertion when it comes to young fast bowlers in Bangladesh.

So what would my ideal team of XV, we're only talking test cricket here BTW, to be held together with smart player rotation for at least a couple of busy years? Here it is:

1. Tamim Iqbal
2. Soumya Sarkar
3. Anamul Haq Bijoy
4. Shakib Al Hasan (C)
5. Mushfiqur Rahim
6. Nasir Hossain
7. Shubhagoto Hom
8. Dhiman Ghosh (WK)
9. Abul Hasan Raju
10. Enamul Haq
11. Rubel Hossain

Reserves:

12. Shohag Gazi
13. Mominul Haq Shourobh
14. Mohammad Mahmudullah Riyad
15. Shafiul/Nazmul/Tapash/Talha

[Wasim Ahmed]

I wrote an article about this series

http://banglacric.com/synopsis-of-we...sh-201213test/

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Sohel
@Asaad: It's all about the approach and philosophy, bro. I'm partial to the Irish approach and not the pre-Ganguly Indian one from the 90s. I believe you should set yourself up to compete irrespective of the circumstances and the best way to do that is by selecting the players with most ability irrespective of the venue. Selecting domestic bullies in the hope that while they're more than likely to fail outside the country, "at least" they'll do better under more familiar conditions albeit against far superior attacks than what they're used to, simply isn't a healthy approach in my book. Beside, we DON'T really compete at home, do we now? Winning a session or two simply isn't competing in a test match from where I stand, and having mediocre players only reduce our odds, even at home.

So guys like Rajin, Rocky, Mehrab, Sohrawardi, Jahurul Islam Omi, Farhad Reza, Nazimuddin, Nayeem and possibly Ratul, Rial and Liton in the not so distant future will never be my thing. The fluke successes notwithstanding, I doubt that any of them has the stomach to handle the pressure of high expectation after his initial success. I also would not bet on them to raise their game the way Riyad has. It's all about sustainability and consistency in my book, and not just in familiar home conditions, but also abroad because we're a test playing nation.

I said that overuse of a young bowler, because he's better than others at the time, creates a higher risk of injury especially on our flat track. I also said that once they get injured, their age becomes a factor, at least with regards psychosomatic impact of the injury. I didn't say that a fast bowler would get injured because he's young. I strongly feel that young prospects like Taskin and Rabbi need someone like Ian Pont to guide them into excellence while teaching them how to prevent injury, before they come into the national team. That, in short is my risk management assertion when it comes to young fast bowlers in Bangladesh.

So what would my ideal team of XV, we're only talking test cricket here BTW, to be held together with smart player rotation for at least a couple of busy years? Here it is:

1. Tamim Iqbal
2. Soumya Sarkar
3. Anamul Haq Bijoy
4. Shakib Al Hasan (C)
5. Mushfiqur Rahim
6. Nasir Hossain
7. Shubhagoto Hom
8. Dhiman Ghosh (WK)
9. Abul Hasan Raju
10. Enamul Haq
11. Rubel Hossain

Reserves:

12. Shohag Gazi
13. Mominul Haq Shourobh
14. Mohammad Mahmudullah Riyad
15. Shafiul/Nazmul/Tapash/Talha

With all due respect Sohel bhai, Shuvagata should not be playing Tests. His temperament is just not good enough for this format and I feel he will not do well in this format. He does have the superb hand-eye coordination and overall solid technique. He has the goods to succeed and I believe you brought up the point that he has the hunger to be a great international batsman which is very important in becoming a successful international level player. The thing is, once he gets bogged down and you dry up the singles, he'll throw his wicket away by risking a boundary. This could be forgiven in T20I's and ODI's but in Tests, he'll throw his wicket away and not only hurt the team, but also the team dearly. This is why I would take the other Mymensingh batsman in Mahmudullah who also has good hand-eye coordation but also has the much more solid temperament and the ability to play with the tail.

Also I'd rather just play with Anamul at the top alongsides Tamim. Soumya is a few years away from being ready and wouldn't mind him being in the squad but not in the playing 11. I think we should be done away with the top order heavy lineup. Have Shakib or Nasir bat at #3. Since Shakib has more bowling responsibilities, it would make more sense Nasir bats at #3. They have the ability to play up the order and it makes no sense having our best batsmen down at #5 and #8. Like you, I too have my doubts Naeem can sustain his success at this level but wouldn't mind him getting a fair shake. I feel Mominul would end up being the better batsman in the long run compared to Naeem. I also agree that it's time Mushy takes his gloves off and hands it to a superior keeper in Dhiman. Also is it that hard for Dhiman to average in the mid-late 20's? Also I feel he could be a good stop gap until Nurul is completely ready for the higher level.

So the lineup that I want to see the next Test series is,

1. Tamim
2. Anamul
3. Nasir
4. Shakib
5. Mushy
6. Mahmudullah
7. Dhiman
8. Abul
9. Sohag
10. Sunny
11. Rubel

Reserves

12. Soumya
13. Enamul
14. Taskin
15. Mominul

[WarWolf]

Without taking a single wicket Abul is in everyone's playing 11!!!!!

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by WarWolf
Without taking a single wicket Abul is in everyone's playing 11!!!!!

He bowled with a fractured hand. So the jury is still out.

[WarWolf]

Originally Posted by Tiger444
He bowled with a fractured hand. So the jury is still out.

Ok. This boy got some good pace. But he is definitely not anywhere close to be ready for the national team yet.

Hope he would prove me wrong soon.

[Nadim]

Originally Posted by WarWolf
Without taking a single wicket Abul is in everyone's playing 11!!!!!

How time has changed! in a week Raju has becomes everyone's favourite